Upbeats: Season 4, Episode 11 (Braving Sinfonia Cymru)

In the new season of Braving the Stave, JJ and Haz give their light-hearted but sharp-eared take on the lunchtime recitals happening every month in Eglwys Dewi Sant. This opening episode ponders whether Patrick Rimes, local folk legend, could play a blancmange, what it would be like to work for an insomniac Count, and the deeper meaning of 'Say a little prayer.'

Transcript

JJ

Hello and welcome to this, the first podcast of the new season!

Haz

Hooray!

JJ

How are you Haz?

Haz

I'm great thanks, JJ, how are you?

JJ

I'm very embracing the word JJ because it feels summary.

Haz

It feels like we're back and why are we here JJ, please tell me?

JJ

Shall I just explain where we are first because it's slightly different. Listeners - we

are in the bowels of Cardiff University music department, which despite the kind 

of bright yellow stripes on the walls., feels quite classroomy and neon. So, we're 

hoping that we'll keep it jolly today.

Haz

Yeah, I'm gonna try. I feel like I might say something wrong about music and then

get asked to leave.

JJ

None of that. I've just been running a young composers course for Arts Active 

who also commissioned this podcast.

Haz

Amazing, love Arts Active

JJ

Looking at Welsh folklore and folk tunes, it's been lovely.

Haz

Amazing. So, lots of young composers?

JJ

Nine young, aspiring composers, and we'll see where they go. We're right at the 

beginning of the process.

Haz

Amazing, and in 10 years' time, you'll just be like, I saw them in a music class, 

yeah!

JJ 

I shall muse on what little influence I had. So, this new series of podcasts that 

we're doing, we'll be looking at the lunchtime recital series that is currently 

happening whilst St Davids Hall has, well remains dark, sadly, in Eglwys Dewi 

Sant.

Haz

Beautiful.

JJ

The centre of Cardiff - Welsh speaking church.  Have you ever been there?

Haz

I haven't, but I'm really excited to go to my first ever lunchtime one and I might 

actually come to the one that we're talking about, because then I can actually 

see what we're doing. 

JJ

Ohh do.

Haz

Otherwise, I Don't know who I'm invoicing. What am I doing here? What am I 

doing with my life?!!

JJ

Apparently, a beautiful acoustic. I can't wait to see it as well, and it's perfect for 

the group that will open the season there – Sinfonia Cymru nonetheless! 

Haz

Amazing. I I'm so excited for this and I even rang my sister today for a refresh of 

her experiences there so I can give you all the inside Goss!

JJ

Ooo

Haz

Yeah.

JJ

Excellent. Well, tell me what is your connection to Sinfonia Cymru?

Haz

Apart from, I've never played with them, so I have no personal connection apart 

from my sister has played with them, and I know that they famously deliver a 

very Energetic, a young orchestra who take new spins on classics but also bring 

things like jazz, folk, pop to the concert. So, it's not, I know it's not all this stiff, 

you know “Suit and Tie, make sure you don't clap between movements”. If you  

clap, that's fine. They bring music to the like the valleys deep into the valleys of 

Wales and it’s so important I think.

JJ

So, they described themselves in their own marketing as - fresh, energising, 

mind-blowing. They're there’re to shake things up in village halls, veg shops, 

pubs. 

Haz

Yeah

JJ

All over Wales. Very, very exciting. It reminds me of the mission of the 

Manchester Collective, which is quite similar in terms of the venues that they 

perform in, often quite small venues, off pieced, and also the content in that, 

they're always blending different genres and seeing what creative opportunities 

that gives them.

Haz

I like that. It's like the tiny desk concerts or like, little pop-up intimate gigs. Or 

like, so far sounds stuff like that where you wouldn't usually hear this type of 

music, but you can, and it's not stuffy and it's all, you know, accessible.

JJ

And they're great players, aren't they? Drawn from, I read Wales, as you might 

imagine, for Sinfonia Cymru, and the world!

Haz

And the world - I mean, not just Wales but the world as well. Give me some name

drops then, go on, tell me.

JJ

Well, they've worked with Bryn Terfel. 

Haz

He's the boy, isn't he?!

JJ

Yeah, he’s the one. Catherine Finch. Big Welsh names here.

Haz

What a Babe, Yeah.

JJ

Able Salako I think is his surname.

Haz

Famous Welshman!! I know, yeah, I mean great, cool.

JJ

I want to say Senegalese. I might be wrong, but he's on the cello and yeah, 

definitely not Welsh, we can say

Haz

But I love it

JJ

And local legend Patrick Rimes, 

Haz

Can’t get better.

JJ

Who plays the fiddle.

Haz

Or the Faddle

JJ

Is that a thing?

Haz

It is now, and I think if it is, Patrick Rimes has done it, like honestly yeah, I've 

seen him. Like, was he playing? It's like oh, it's just my peppercorn. And you’re 

like, What? Yeah, But it's one of those weird looking things.

JJ

He could play a blancmange if he wanted to.

Haz

Yeah, and make it sound really Celtic and Really cool.

JJ

Should we have listen?

Haz

Yeah, let's do it.

JJ

Hang on, there's a Lowri Thomas playing Viola there.

Haz

I wouldn't plug it in unless my sister was playing, don’t we know this by now?

JJ

This has Haz’s sister everybody, on the Viola as well. I didn't realise that she was 

a co-violaist

Haz

Ohh yeah, she's real cool.

JJ

That must have been a little awkward growing up with all the competition, right?

Haz

Not at all, because if you play Viola, I've never met, well no, I have met one 

competitive Viola player, and he was an arse. Oh! Sorry, Can I say that?!

JJ

I think we can. 

Haz

OK, sorry! But I think competitive Viola players otherwise, they don't really exist. 

It's like you on the off beat as well? Yeah, me too. Let's just, you know, Noodle 

around together.

JJ

So, we can expect them on Tuesday the 3rd of September in Eglwys Dewi Sant, 

in Cardiff City centre to not do that piece, actually, but certainly to be in 

standing. When I say they it's going to be a string trio and a clarinettist.

Haz

That's exciting as well. They always have different combinations of instruments, 

I'm really excited for that in the acoustic.

JJ

And it's a beautifully eclectic programme and we go from Bach right the way 

through to Aretha Franklin and all sorts, and actually, having mentioned Patrick 

Rimes, local legend and the lead violinist of Calan Folk Band - award-winning folk 

band.

Haz

Mm-hmm.

JJ

He's actually performing one of his own pieces at the end, or they're performing 

one of his pieces at the end, which will will come to. So, he's composed for them.

I thought we could perhaps start off by looking at the Goldberg variations. Which 

has been arranged by Sitkovetsky for string trio since the 80s. Have you ever 

done this version?

Haz

Confession - No. And we're in a classroom, so come on, teach. Tell me everything 

I need to know about this because I feel like a bit of a, you know, swine for not 

knowing everything about this. It feels like one that I should know about, like 

Brandenburg, you know, a piece that you should know about.

JJ

Yes, it is an iconic work from the Bach Cannon, certainly. Made famous when 

Glenn Gould, the Canadian, eccentric pianist, sat very, very low at the keyboard 

and did this iconic recording of it which caused quite a stir, a lot of people didn't 

agree with it, but it's been set as a benchmark of a very sort of lyrical free 

approach to it. Let's go back a step. The Goldberg variations were initially written

for a Count who had insomnia, and rather than having something to lull him to 

sleep, he just got real and said look, I'm going to be awake between 2:00 and 

4:00 anyway, so I need you Bach to come up with something to entertain me and

keep my mind, you know, gainfully occupied. So, something full of variety, full of 

interest. You don't have to write, you know, just lullabys all the time.

Haz

Yeah.

JJ

And I quite like that. That's very real. I don't know if you, you know, live with 

insomnia at all.

Haz

Only, thankfully very briefly, but there's nothing worse than the guilt of feeling 

like you should be sleeping, or, like, come on, everything should be kicking in you

know. I've had a bath, lavender, I've, you know, taken some Nyquil and all this 

stuff, and it's still not working, so instead the best thing you can do apparently is 

to just get up. Listen to something more energising and yeah, get out of that 

funk and then take yourself to bed later. So, this is probably super healthy.

JJ

Yes, this would be very healthy in that respect. So, these are sort of 32 short 

pieces

Haz

32!

JJ

Yes 32, bearing in mind that the themes sort of bookend the piece, and then 

you've got 30 variations, some of which are really short, under a minutes. So, it's

a masterpiece because Bach is so good at creating variety out of this one base 

line He doesn't take the tune. He takes the baseline and the sequence of chords 

and harmonies and allows that to be the framework that he variates on. The 

architecture of it is stunning because every 3rd variation is a cannon at a 

different degree. Then you've got a genre piece. So, it might be a minuet or a 

quodlibet or something maybe drawn from the world of dance or folkloric style. 

It's just beautifully brought together into this musical jigsaw of almost infinite 

variety. So why don't we listen to one of those variations? It's a particularly 

athletic one. I can't imagine anybody sleeping to this, right? And it's the 5th 

variation.

Haz

Wow, that's really clever. It's very, very fast. But also, you can hear these long 

lines. I think it would eventually get you off to sleep if you had a very busy mind. 

I mean that in a nice way.

JJ

You think?

Haz

I don't know. It's like there is a tune, but it's in the baseline.

JJ

Yes, the logic of it is there and discernible. In, as you say, the left hand is leaping,

these huge athletic leaps and in the middle of the texture you've got that 

business, and it probably this would have been played on two manuals, on a 

harpsichord in order to make that work. Otherwise, it'd be quite split. It's 

notoriously hard to play this on the piano, or a single keyboard, because your 

hands kind of get in the way of each other.

Haz

I just think, Can you imagine being the musician on call in this guy's court like, oh

God, he can't sleep again. I hope he doesn't ask for number 5!! Like, get out all 

the pages, here we go boys. So, we are like not even warming up clicking his 

fingers like, here we go here we go, that would be horrible.

JJ

Just imagining it – Ohh, it’s going to be a 30 variation night tonight. I can feel it. I 

had too much coffee.

Haz

Yeah. Don't stay up, love. We got 30 variations to get through. Coffee. Here we 

go. That's horrible.

JJ

Ohh my goodness me. Well, the original player was of course Goldberg, right? 

Hence the Goldberg variations.

Haz

Hmm.

JJ

It still remains one of those pieces that I think professional pianists sort of 

measure themselves by because of quite how demanding it is. Not only the 

individual variations, but holding the whole thing together and making sort of 

beautiful sense out of it. People have their favourites. I love Igor Levitz’ version. 

Beatrice Rana has a more lyrical approach, there's Lang Lang, who's actually a 

lot more mellow than you might imagine from our friend Lang Lang.

Haz

Who's known for being a bit showy, right? 

JJ

Yes, yes. An interpretation of real depth, and so, I think it really comes alive in 

this string trio version as well.

Haz

Hmm. So that's the version that they're gonna be, not that actual version, but 

that sounding a bit like that's going to be in the in the concert.

JJ

In the concert it'll be the string trio. I don't quite know how many variations 

they're doing. They clearly won't be doing all of them because they've got too 

many other pieces to do.

Haz

People have got lives to live Jon, don’t we!!

JJ

It would be a very long lunch, put it that way. A very Long lunch.

Haz

Shall I do my piece? Shall I? 

JJ

I'd love to hear that.

Haz

Yay, I'm so excited about this. So, this is more on the lines of the pop, sort of, you

know, genre bending things that the Sinfonia Cymru do so well. This is, I say a 

little prayer. I know. See. Classic. 

JJ

Classic

Haz

So, this is one of my favourite pieces of all time. And I love the fact that they're 

going to do this as a string trio. I think that's fantastic. So, this was written in, I'm

going to surprise you now with no notes. This is written in 1967, by Burt 

Bacharach during the Vietnam War. There's been interviews with people saying, 

you know, this is around the time that Martin Luther King Junior was shot. A lot of

African American and people of colour who were at war at the time were saying - 

if you can't keep him safe, you can't keep us safe. There's nothing you can be 

doing to keep us safe. This song was apparently in response to that originally 

sung by Dionne Warwick, who sang this and basically said, you know, always 

thinking of you, I say a little prayer for you. We're doing our mundane daily 

things and the moment I wake up before I put on my makeup, I say a little prayer

for you like. You're always on my mind.

JJ

Wow, that's completely shifted my understanding

Haz

Isn't that cool

JJ

It’s given a whole new dimension! Also musically, I didn't realise you know, you 

connected so much with the Franklin version, that I hadn't realised it's passed via

Bacharach

Haz

Yeah, written for her, and then Aretha Franklin did a cover version, which is like 

the version that I think we mostly know today. Then lots of other people have 

done it and you know they've said they've taken it back to church. They've really 

gone to the sole roots of it, but it's one of these covers that hasn't been changed 

too much because it's just perfect as it is. No one likes to mess with that 3, 3, 4, 

4 you know.

JJ

Yeah

Haz

You look at me like, you know, I actually love this song. I know.

JJ

It's brilliant, it's brilliant. It is a classic for good reason. Should we have a a quick 

reminder of how it goes?

Haz

Yeah, please.

JJ

Such a fresh sound, isn't it? That's a young Aretha Franklin.

Haz

It's so good and I wouldn't let you turn it off until I hear that little baseline or little

piano light go down. It's just so good.

JJ

You know it deeply.

Haz

Yeah.

JJ

I didn't realise, and the backing vocals also, I think on that are just so tight

Haz

Again, Aretha Franklin's sister was the one who was singing this on tour with her 

and just amazing. I just think it has such a beautiful message to it. It's not just 

another song about a romance or anything like that. It's thinking of people that 

can't be there and always saying, even though I can't say this every day, I say 

something for you.

JJ

Isn't that beautiful to have that element of social justice, thank you so much for 

the research on that.

Haz

You're welcome. Let's play it again, three times. Let's go!!

JJ

I have to say that you know, there are sometimes, let's be honest, I'm sure not 

with Sinfonia Cymru, there is sometimes a cringe factor, isn't there of string 

quartets or similar, you know, ensembles tackling pop repertoire.

Haz

Yeah. There's this phrase that classical musicians use with each other when 

you're trying to do like a jazzy or a cool arrangement, and it's like swinging like a 

statues *BEEP*!! It's like when you're a classically trained musician and you're 

trying to do something and make it sound poppy. It just falls flat on its face. You 

have to feel it. Embrace the fact you are a geek and you're trying to do 

something cool.

JJ

Stick to your lane.

Haz

Just, yeah. Or if you're gonna do some jazzy or pop stuff, just realise that you're a

massive geek and it's fine. We're laughing with you. It's great, yeah.

JJ

Send yourselves up in the process.

Haz

Yes, exactly, do it proper.

JJ

With that said, I have to say, listening to the arrangement of Duffy's Mercy.

Haz

Yeah.

JJ

That was that was a really good arrangement in terms of the composition, how 

they're exploring the different sounds of the instruments and really getting the 

most out of that combination of sounds as well.

Haz

Yeah. I mean, if you're having to put in the parts of a drum kit and a walking 

bassline and the piano and percussion, all this stuff, and you're trying to create 

that with some string players, I mean, yeah, it takes guts.

JJ

It does indeed. It'll be very interesting to see how they go from something as 

uplifting and cheery as that, to the world of Der Leirmann, this really morose 

song by Schubert that finishes his winter eyes of the journey, the wintry journey, 

which is about as depressing as it gets, really.

Haz

Hanging. Yeah, I mean it's probably just whilst we're all applauding quick seg, 

they're like, oh, they started. They'll be like, ohhhh, it's glum.

JJ

It would be interesting, that really is opposite ends of the emotional spectrum 

there to occupy.

Haz

Yeah, and difficult for players as well to just to go from something that's like, so 

catchy and quick to then be like *deep breath*, okay, now it’s literally and now 

something completely different,  isn't it? But you have to do all that work.

JJ

Bold programming. 

Haz

Yeah. Nice. I like it. I'm here for.

JJ

And at the end it's brought together by this Welsh folk composition. I don't know 

how new it is, it’s  called Creigiau, which means rocks, by Patrick Rhymes. 

Haz

Nice. 

JJ

You're a Patrick Rhymes fan as well, aren’t you?

Haz

I am. I know him from Nash back in the day, sorry for the unlearned of you, that's

the National Youth Orchestra of Wales. 

JJ

Ah, of course it is.

Haz

Big up the NYOW! We have cross paths in college and also he's in a partnership 

with one of my very good friends, a musical partnership with one of my very 

good friends Angharad Jenkins, and they recently brought out an album which 

has been nominated for an award, and I just think they're fantastic right now. 

JJ

What is the name of the album?

Haz 

It's – Amrwd.

JJ

I wonder what that means.

Haz

She's probably told me, and I'm a terrible friend, but it’s A-M-R-W-D - Amrwd and 

it's fantastic. It's Patrick Rimes and Angharad Jenkins and they've brought out 

some beautiful tracks in this. I think people don't do enough things like Calon Lan

and Myfannwy, and things like that, which is really beautiful to hear as a viola 

and violin piece

JJ

They really are rolling out the male voice classic.

Haz

Yes, exactly. Can I play this, though? This is one of my favourites. Can I? 

JJ

Please

Haz

Thank you. So, this one is called Nant y Mynydd. Now, Nant y Mynydd, and I 

definitely did not Google this before, but let me get up the correct tab

JJ

It’s Stream.

Haz

Yes! How do you know that?!

JJ

Well, I do speak a little Welsh

Haz

Jon, that's really good! Yes, it literally says here Google Translate says the 

mountain stream the fresh clear mountain stream meandering towards the 

hollow between the rushes, whispering song. Oh, if only I was like the stream.

JJ

Ohh, we’ve got to listen to this.

Haz

Yes.

JJ

You know, I like how paired back that is, and yet it has so much to say.

Haz

Yeah, it's great.

JJ

I didn't really think about mountain streams I have to say.

Haz

Not yet You wait, listen to the whole thing. Listen to the whole album, even that 

is a mountain stream of an album.

JJ

Well, I thought we could see ourselves out by keeping in the same space and the 

Welsh folk space, and just having a sense of what it might sound like on Tuesday 

the 3rd of September with Patrick Rimes and Sinfonia Cymru, as they play 

Creigiau to finish the concert. This actually is a recording with harpist Cerys 

Hafana, who also sings in this beautifully, clear, or one could say mountain 

stream.

Haz

Yeah.

JJ

Folk voice and with Sinfonia Cymru accompanying with this plush string sound, it 

really is beautiful. She is playing harp, so together you get this heavenly sound, 

which is very apt because this is called tragwyddoldeb, which means Eternity. 

Haz

Nice. I mean, that was impressive as well.

JJ

I did practise. 

Haz

Yeah. Yeah, it's really good 

JJ

Didn’t really trip off the tongue did it

Haz

No, but beautifully delivered. And she's a triple harpist, isn't she? So, she's like 

triple harpist, triple Harper?! But that amazing instrument, which sounds like the 

17 harps playing, but it's just one person doing all the work

JJ

Great. We'll listen out for that. Lovely to see you Haz.

Haz

And you, also!

JJ

I hope you have a a busy summer, you know, but not too busy.

Haz

Yeah, just a little bit like nice weather, but not too sunny, busy enough to keep it 

ticking over, but not buried under. I wish that for you.

JJ

We spoke about this listeners in our last podcast about that, that critical balance 

that musicians have in the summer.

Haz

Yeah, have you found it yet?

JJ

Not quite! 

Haz

No, no, neither have I. 

JJ

We look forward to coming back in the autumn to trail each one of these 

lunchtime recitals between now and until Christmas in Eglwys Dewi Sant. It will 

be a beautiful acoustic, and what better way to start it than with Sinfonia 

Cymru?!

Haz

Perfect, we'll see you there.

JJ

Here's a slice of eternity to leave you with.