Upbeats: Season 4, Episode 13 (Braving The Harp)

When Jon likens harp music to twinkly bedtime stories, Haz champions the instrument, taking it beyond the usual clichés. Together they consider its Celtic history, how much patience you need to tune it, the most-loved harp effects, and why harpists are the best people to ask to unscrew a jar.

Transcript

Transcript

Braving the Harp

JJ

 Hello Haz how are you?

Haz

Blinking brilliant, thank you. How are you, JJ?

JJ

Well, I'm just getting over the end of a, you know, ubiquitous cold. So if you're hearing me slightly hoarse and lacking my usual funsome energy, that's what it's about.

Haz

You're grand. This is great. This is like the time of the year to have colds. But fear not, we've got just... 

JJ

Am I on trend?

Haz

Yeah, you are. We both got a bit of a cold and we're here to talk harp. 
 
 JJ
 
 Yes. How do you feel about that? 
 
 Haz
 
 Well, well, it's a bold statement to make straight away first thing in the podcast, but I like the harp.
 
 JJ
 
 Do you? 
 
 Haz
 Why? Do you not? 
 
 JJ
 
 Well, perhaps we should go back a step to say “why are we talking about the harp?” I think it behoves us to put a little bit of context on for the listeners. 
 
 Haz
 
 Ok, yeah.
 
 JJ
 
 So we talked by the way about the sax, I think rather brilliantly, in the last podcast. 
 
 Haz
 
 Beautifully. Eloquently. 
 
 JJ
 
 Wasn’t it?!
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah!
 
 JJ
 
 It was so eloquent.
 
 Haz
 
 So we're just making our way around the periphery of the orchestra. First, the saxophones are now…. 
 JJ
 
 Well… we are, in effect, but we're being led by the lunchtime recital series at Eglwys Dewi Sant, which is being staged by Arts Active. Saint David's Hall, sadly still being dark at the moment. And we're looking ahead to, well, this coming Tuesday in November and a beautiful concert being put on by a harp trio with harp flute and…
 Haz
 
 Cello. 
 
 JJ
 
 Cello
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah. But we're focusing on the harp because I feel that's the lesser known beast of the trio, even though it's the biggest and definitely gonna be in the middle, it's the one I think we know the least about. It's the most magnificent looking, it's often gold, it's shiny. 
 
 JJ
 
 It's so bling, isn't it? The harp. 
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah.
 
 JJ
 
 There's no ignoring a harp.
 
 Haz
 
 No, exactly.
 
 JJ
 
 So let's just put our cards on the table. Let's get our… I’m… for me, I'm just gonna put my prejudices out there as well. But I think we should start with you because you sound more positive about the whole situation. 
 
 Haz
 
 Ok. I am now OK because I'm in a duo - the Bragwyn Duo with my bestie, Marged Hall.
 
 JJ
 
 Oooh.
 
 Haz
 
 Before I was in a duo with her, I thought all harpists were, and don't shoot me for this, bimboey. No, not that, that sounds terrible. 
 
 JJ
 
 There is that stereotype. 
 
 Haz
 
 It's like they're so beautiful, they're so graceful, they're playing things like The Swan, they're gliding away, and the conductor’s always like, “ohh, more harp there”. And you're like, “yeah, the harp”. But you've gotta have a brain in your head to be... You've got a lot of strings. 
 
 JJ
 
 There's a lot of technicality there that we'll come to later actually and difficulty
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah. 
 
 JJ
 
 not just playing the instrument, but writing for it as well
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah, I mean you think about a bow pulling the sound out of the string. These girls and gals, which is another prejudice, I mean, no, exactly, girls and guys!
 
 JJ
 
 Yeah, we got there. 
 
 Haz
 I just instantly thought of girls. You have to pull the sound out of the strings. I’m making this, sort of, claw motion in my hands. Like, if you ever want a jar opened, ask a harpist.
 
 JJ
 
 Do you reckon they have really strong grips?
 
 Haz
 
 I know it.
 
 JJ
 
 Really?
 
 Haz
 
 Honestly, they are the best and they look so delicate and beautiful like “oh, it's just me and my harp”, but they have to lug these massive instruments out of their usual massive cars onto a ramp. Sometimes we have to lift it onto stages. These are power horses.
 
 JJ
 
 This is a major production, isn't it, to get a harp from A to B onto the stage, tuned of course,
 
 Haz
 
 Tuned
 
 JJ
 
 Because they’re beasts to tune.
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah. 
 
 JJ
 
 And you're right, the stereotypical image of a woman with flowing hair, looking angelic at the harp
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah
 
 JJ
 
 sort of belies, really, all the hard work and the manual labour that goes behind. 
 
 Haz
 
 Yes, people like “My fingers are bleeding. I've cultivated blisters on my fingers for this gig”. And you're like, “Oh, that's pretty, isn't it? That’s nice, you play the harp, innit”. 
 
 JJ
 
 Talking of prettiness, here's my gripe. I mean, just regardless of who's playing it, if you have your typical flute and harp duo at a wedding, say, I just feel… Ok, so it’s partly the repertoire they've chosen, but it is that archetypical hotel foyer, sort of, bedtime story music. It's the equivalent of being read a bedtime story, regardless of how exciting they're trying to make it. You know, it's still lulls you into this very soporific state. I mean, there's a good reason why King Saul picked the harp and not the saxophone
 
 Haz
 
 Careful!
 
 Haz
 
 to be lulled out of an angry state. 
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah, I think maybe as well because we think of the harp in terms of the pearly gates of heaven and like [imitates glissando on harp], or you know every time we think of dreaming, or in TV and films [imitates glissando on harp] and it's like that signifies
 
 JJ
 
 The double gliss.
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah, that signifies the dream and it's like it's all wibbly wobbly and pretty and everything's rose tinted. But harpists, and I say this with love, can make one hell of a sound. I mean, I'm talking knocking, banging on it, physically pulling the strings, moving the pedals to make it go “vvvrrvvrr”. 
 
 JJ
 
 You're making it sound a lot more exciting than I remember. 
 
 Haz
 
 I think it's the proximity to it. When you're sat next to it, you realise there's a lot going on. It's like when you sit in a pit under the stage when they're doing a ballet and you can hear the banging from people landing on point and you're like, “Ohh a lot goes on”. But from the front, you know, in the audience, it looks so graceful and beautiful. So there's a lot going on there. 
 
 JJ
 
 Fine observation.
 
 Haz
 
 Thank you.
 
 JJ
 
 And particularly if you look at their feet, you know, on a modern harp, a pedal harp…
 
 Haz
 
 Right, tell me, how many… I'm gonna quiz you, how many pedals are there? There 
 
 JJ
 
 There are seven Haz but, I have to say, smart listeners might have noticed a cut there because I had a slight panic. 
 Haz
 
 Yeah, he's rifling through his notes. I was like, “mm-mm, you're wrong music, man!”
 
 JJ
 
 Looking at mnemonics for remembering the order of them rather than just thinking logically, because of course you need seven to alter the seven notes of the scale. 
 
 Haz
 
 I literally didn't even know that. That's just blown my mind. 
 
 JJ
 
 Has it?!
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah, genuinely because I know you've got a pedal and they've got, like, say they got a C you put it down. It goes “bwaw, waw, waw, waw”. 
 
 JJ
 
 If you put it down, it sharpens it, it tightens it. And you put it up it flattens it. So… and here's the thing, if you're interested in writing for the harp and you want to write a chord where there's, let's say, both an F and an F sharp in it, when you depress the F on the pedal that puts all the F's on the harp up to F sharp. Which means, in order to get the F natural you have to do an E sharp. So you have to do these enharmonic tricks. This is what I mean by they are so clever. 
 
 JJ
 
 They’re clever people, these harpists.
 
 Haz
 
 It's the theory of it. They're like “Mm-hmm”. I can’t do it. Like, even playing something like Greensleeves, where you’re major one bar, minor the other. Or like, you know, different things like that. I always think “How are you doing that?” You're calculating in advance what you're going to be doing for the next four… and I just think…. 
 
 JJ
 
 There's a lot of strategic planning, I think with working out the pedals in advance, rather like playing an organ when you're working out the stop registrations.
 
 Haz
 
 Yes.
 
 JJ
 
 Yeah, things need to be sussed out and noted in advance. There’s a lot of post it notes involved. 
 
 Haz
 
 A hell of a lot and loads of scribbles on our scores. And so the seven pedals, but when I'm playing with Mags and we've got a page turner for our iPad, she has 9 pedals because I can't even work with two, I can only go up and down my bow and I'm like, “No, no, I'll leave the foot stuff to you” and she has 9 pedals, so it's bonkers. 
 
 JJ
 
 Do you think they're good drivers, harpists?
 
 Haz
 
 No, she's terrible.
 
 JJ
 
 Ok. 
 
 Haz
 
 She's absolutely awful. But because you got a harp in the back, it's like a sail. Do you know what I mean?
 
 JJ
 
 Right. It's not an easy drive. 
 
 Haz
 
 If it’s a windy day you're going all over that M4. 
 
 JJ
 
 We've talked about pedal harps, we ought to mention, particularly in the context of this going out as a Welsh podcast, about the Welsh triple harp, for example, and lever harps are other ways of tuning older harps. And I have to say that harps are the oldest instruments in the world, going back to, some say, 3000 BC and even earlier than that, and they belong all over African countries, there’s 150 African peoples that have harps somehow as hieroglyphs, or as, sort of, part of their ancient musical heritage.
 
 Haz
 
 That’s amazing.
 
 JJ
 
 And whether it's a lyre - I mean the word ‘harp’ apparently means to pluck, so anything that's plucked within a frame can be referred to as an ancient harp, and then it developed from there. 
 
 Haz
 
 That's really cool. 
 
 JJ
 
 So I thought we could just play the sound of a Welsh triple harp. 
 
 Haz
 
 I have one here! 
 
 JJ
 
 Wouldn’t that be fantastic! Just... 
 
 Haz
 
 Every episode, just like “I played the saxophone last week”. 
 
 JJ
 
 Yeah, this is a telyn deires - the triple harp - imitating the sound of the bells in Aberdovey. 
 
 [Music: Trad. Bells of Aberdovey (Clychau Aberdyfi). Artist: Mary Thomas]
 
 Complete bugger to tune that, you've got three rows of strings either side of the equivalent of white notes on the piano, and then you have the black notes down the middle. That must be quite tricky to get at, so you’d need quite long fingernails, I would have though, as a Celtic harpist. 
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah, I don't know. I was just thinking it's so difficult to set up. You know when you're like, “oh, I need to practise. Ohh, I can't be bothered”. But then you get it out the case, you get your bow out, you get… But imagine playing the harp, it’s like “right, got to tune it first.” Ohh I'd lose the will. I'd lose the will before I'd even played, you know. 
 
 JJ
 
 Epic preparation. 
 
 Haz
 
 Ohh my God!
 
 JJ
 
 

So modern harpists play more with the flat of their finger, the pad, and then Celtic harpists apparently use more the [inaudible], the picks you know.
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah.
 
 JJ
 
 Is it time for a treasure swap do you think
 
 Haz
 
 Yes, please. I'm excited. Well, I'm not excited for this because I already know what you're gonna do because I chose the same one. 
 
 JJ
 
 I think we can share this. Can we co-own this? 
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah. Why am I cross? Sorry. Yeah, it's both of our favourite. And it's I think it's the most, I'm gonna say, quintessential harp ‘mmhh mmhh’ sound ever. Please introduce it because I’ll get it wrong. 
 
 JJ
 
 Yes. This is from Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker Suite and it opens the Waltz of the Flowers. Let's have a quick listen. 
 
 [Music: Tchaikovsky: Waltz of the Flowers (Nutcracker suite). Artists: David Arnold, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra]
 
 JJ
 
 Just imagine people coming on stage in tracksuits to that it's you couldn't, could you? 
 
 Haz
 
 You can’t. It's tutus or nothing. That's this is the whole point. So Tchaikovsky chose the beautiful harp with light and airy and… just beautiful and like a fairy, and then these flowers falling. That's why I think we associate the harp with lovely niceness.
 
 JJ
 
 And regality, you know, it's a very royal sound. And in terms of its function in courts and I suppose through the 19th century its position in the aristocrats’ front salon. 
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah. 
 
 JJ
 
 You know, you wouldn't be seen without a proper harp in the corner or a fortepiano. 
 
 Haz
 
 Exactly. And it can fill a room. That's the thing. They think it's a really nice…. well, I say people think it's really nice light and airy sound, but they can be loud. 
 
 JJ
 
 Yeah. I mean, let's just dig into the royal connection because, again, thinking of Wales, apart from its bardic tradition in Wales, which is still very important, there is that post that was created by the then Prince of Wales, now King Charles, back in 2000s, or he revived it rather, and that was the royal harpist. 
 
 Haz
 
 I love that I love… like if I were a millionaire, I'd be like, “yeah, I want a bit of live music everywhere.” I just think it's such a lovely thing to have - hopefully live musician, you know, in the corner of every room. Just setting the vibe, making sure everything's nice. 
 
 JJ
 
 And so many big names have come out from that post. I'm thinking of Catrin Finch and Anne Denholm and in fact before them, one noticeable exception to the usual rule of gender when it comes to harp players, Osian Ellis.
 
 Haz
 
 Great.
 
 JJ
 
 Wales's own. 
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah. And that's the thing, we have so many beautiful harpists that could fill the role, but I think you also have to be a people person - nice, charming, charismatic, and can read a room. So you're not gonna play Canon 17 times in a row for the king, you know? 
 
 JJ
 
 Yes.
 
 Haz
 
 And the one of them is Alis Huws, who will be playing in the concert on Tuesday the 5th of November. 
 
 JJ
 
 Well remembered, and this is such a talented trio, by the way. We have Ben Tarlton on cello, with whom I've worked at Pro Corda, where we met.
 
 Haz
 
 Ooh! Where we met over a whisky! Oh!
 
 JJ
 
 Where we met, and just, you know, setting the world to rights in a corner of Suffolk where there's lovely chamber music, residentials. Ben - he's a hero of a cellist. He's got an amazing sound. 
 
 Haz
 
 Again, you have to be because you're not competing, but working alongside the powerhouse of a harp and then a flautist as well. So we have Mina Middleton on flute.
 
 JJ
 
 Brilliant. Well, a very beautiful combination. Let's talk about the harp in the context of chamber music. You've mentioned their power on the orchestral stage, but I think you've got another little chamber piece to share. 
 
 Haz
 
 I do and I'm really excited for this. I actually played this in a masterclass in Welsh College, not one that I was giving, obviously, I was taking part with a friend and this is the Mathias Zodiac Trio. And it's so bonkers. You have to really know your part inside and out because you'll notice the flute and the viola parts for this are doubled, and then the harp is just in the middle like an anchor. But we talked about its power, but really here it's like a textural thing. So it just keeps going all the way through and you feel like there's lots more threads that are happening than just three people playing. And so I've gone for the final movement of this trio and the finale of it, and it just gets wilder and wilder and wilder and I think it makes sounds that you wouldn't ordinarily think a flute, viola, and harp would make. 
 
 [Music: William Mathias: Zodiac Trio, 3rd Movt. Artists: The Debussy Ensemble (Susan Milan, Matthew Jones, Ieuan Jones]
 
 JJ
 
 Oh, that's thrilling. 
 
 Haz
 
 It's magnificent, isn't it? 
 
 JJ
 
 I love that.
 
 Haz
 
 Especially... I was depping for my sister ‘cause it's my sister's trio and I had to really, really, really know my part inside out. 
 
 JJ
 
 Wow, that's a tough one to dep for. 
 
 Haz
 
 Very much so and as well because I wanted to do well, not for myself, but for my sister so I was trying really, really hard. And you have to really know your part because it feels like there's way more than three instruments playing. The harp is doing all the nice harpy things that you think of at the top, but that low rumbling that you think might be the bases or the cellos, they aren't there! It’s like the harp left hand or right hand, whatever it is. 
 
 JJ
 
 So versatile. 
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah. 
 
 JJ
 
 Let's just talk about the nice harpy things that, you know, effects that we connect with the harp sound, right. 
 
 Haz
 
 Can I say the obvious one? 
 
 JJ
 
 Please.
 
 Haz
 
 The Disney gliss – “brrrrrr”  that one. 
 
 JJ
 
 Absolutely, I'll just play that now [harp glissando sound] “Who's looking through the round window?!” 
 
 Haz
 
 Ooh! It's so lovely, isn't it? And I always get my friends to play that when I'm feeling a bit down. It makes me feel really happy. It's like “Here's Haz, dududulududu” and it makes me feel like I've got my stuff together, which I DON’T, but it makes me feel magical.
 
 JJ
 
 You've got good friends. 
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah, cheers, thanks. 
 
 JJ
 
 So then we have harmonics which are particularly ghostly. I mean, they're always spectral on at any instrument but somehow on the harp, there's an extra hollowness and an extra magic to the sound. 
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah, and you know when you see pianists, because you do this as well, when you tap a note on the piano and you don't just leave your finger there like a dead fish, you take it off and it and the sound travels with you. It's like watching that when you see a harpist with their thumbs go “plnng!” and pluck the note out. I don't know what they're doing, witchcraft somewhere, and I wanna join their coven because it sounds great. I love that sound [sound of harp playing harmonics]. 
 
 JJ
 
 Then we have my favourite effect on a harp, which is bisbigliando, which means whispering or ‘bisping’. 
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah ‘bisbing’, yeah! 
 
 JJ
 
 For sure. And this shimmering of sound between the two hands, often sort of close together. Just allowing a chord to shimmer in the distance [sound of harp playing bisbigliando effect]. So we had that whispering effect together with harmonics and a little swoop, a little glissando there at the end. The other effect that comes to mind is when you pluck the string next to the soundboard, so près de la table. You get this very brittle sounding pluck as well. 
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah. 
 
 JJ
 
 So, many colours to this instrument, and of course I was being unfair in suggesting it was anodyne when coupled with a flute.
 
 Haz
 
 I know. 
 
 JJ
 
 But you know that is the stereotype. 
 
 Haz
 
 That's the cliché, and that’s it, we always think… well, I think I think, even though working with harpist, I think female, you know, nice, lovely sounds, but actually, there's so many amazing players all over the world. There's so many amazing techniques and different combinations of instruments. And I think it's… I will say I think it's the most versatile instrument that has I know. 
 
 JJ
 
 Wow, that's a big statement. 
 
 Haz
 
 Huge. 
 
 JJ
 
 Well, you know, I can see why you're saying that, and particularly when you look at the kinship between the harp and other plucked instruments, as you say. Now here's a lovely example with Catrin Finch - as we mentioned, former harpist to the then Prince of Wales - together with Seckou Keita, who's a Senegalese kora player, this beautiful traditional plucked instrument. And together the plucked sounds really meld beautifully. So this is called Bamba.
 
 [Music: Seckou Keita: Bamba. Artists: Catrin Finch, Seckou Keita]
 
 Haz
 
 Beautiful and I can't really tell where one ends and the other begins, sort of. They do meld really well, don't they? 
 
 JJ
 
 They do. It's a very mellow sound and even, you know, you see the word bamba and you're thinking [both sing Labamba].
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah.
 
 JJ
 
 But it's a lot mellower than that, thank goodness. And really bringing out the full colours of each instrument. That's a lovely album, actually, that particular duo. So that is our brief survey of the instrument. We've braved the harp, we've braved the saxophone. Who knows what's next. 
 
 Haz
 
 I mean hopefully not the viola, because I don't want the next episode to be the one where I'm found out, I don't even know the strings. In fact, I found out a viola player, the other day, has a cover band of ACDC and it's called AGDC.
 
 JJ
 
 Oh no! AGDC! Yes!
 
 Haz
 
 Which is the strings of Viola. Anyway, I digress, thinking of our harp friends. Yes, it's big. Please leave room for them when they're parking. It takes the whole width of the car to get the harp out. Yes, they wish they played the flute. No, it's not surfboard. It's not an oven glove. And yes, it's very pretty. It costs a lot. 47 strings, 7 pedals. There. I've said it for everyone. 
 
 JJ
 
 Ohh well done. That's a formidable… just, yeah, setting of the score and let's just get all that, kind of, small talk out the way and go to the real stuff, which could be talking about Britten and Benjamin Britten and how well he wrote for the harp.
 
 Haz
 
 Really well. 
 
 JJ
 
 That's far more interesting. 
 
 Haz
 
 That's the big ‘un, isn't it. 
 
 JJ
 
 Now Osian Ellis, the famous Welsh harpist, was actually pivotal to how Britten wrote for the harp, wrote for the instrument and explored its particular capacities. And there is a suite that Osian commissioned from him as part of the Aldeburgh festival, and I'm sure Britten had Osian in mind when he was composing the famous Ceremony of Carols. Is it too early to play people a Christmassy piece? What do you think? 
 
 Haz
 
 As far as I'm concerned, this side of July is fair game. 
 
 JJ
 
 You reckon? 
 
 Haz
 
 Ohh I'm with you. 
 
 JJ
 
 Well, here in Bristol, the Christmas market stalls are already up, rather sickeningly. 
 
 Haz
 
 Hey, it's never too early. Get your hats on. 
 
 JJ
 
 Well, this one, you know, you could be forgiven for not hearing a particularly, sort of, Christmassy sound to it. It's the Interlude for the harp, which is particularly beautiful, just melodically and otherwise in terms of how it uses the colours of the harp. Britten just showing his genius here.
 
 Haz
 
 Yeah.
 
 JJ
 
 As ever, in his imagination for the instrument. And this is from the Ceremony Carols and with this, we bid you farewell 
 
 Haz
 
 And a Merry Christmas. No!
 
 JJ
 
 Not quite yet! Not quite yet. See. You next month, everybody. Diolch yn Fawr.
 
 Haz
 
 Diolch yn fawr, hwyl!
 
 JJ
 
 Hwyl.
 
 [Music: Benjamin Britten. A Ceremony of Carols, Interlude]