Upbeats: Season 4, Episode 19 Artwork

Braving the Stave

Hosted by Jonathan James and joined by Angharad Smith, a.k.a ‘JJ & Haz’ , this bubbly duo delve through all music and genres, sharing with you their personal favourite pieces, along with some musical jokes that add a playful and informal feel to the podcast. Working as part of Arts Active's Cardiff Classical programme, we run lots of exciting extras alongside it to support the concerts. Check out the Arts Active website for more - www.artsactive.org.uk
Got any comments for JJ and Haz? Email them to A2@artsactive.org.uk
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Yn cael eu cyflwyno gan Jonathan James, yng nghwmni Angharad Smith, neu ‘JJ a Haz’ fel y’u gelwir, mae’r ddeuawd fyrlymus hon yn pori drwy bob math o gerddoriaeth a genres, gan rannu gyda chi eu hoff ddarnau personol, ynghyd â rhai jôcs cerddorol sy’n ychwanegu teimlad chwareus ac anffurfiol i’r podlediad. Gan weithio fel rhan o'r rhaglen Gyfres Glasurol Actifyddion Artistig, rydym yn cynnal llawer o bethau ychwanegol cyffrous ochr yn ochr ag ef i gefnogi'r cyngherddau. Edrychwch ar wefan Arts Active i gael mwy - www.artsactive.org.uk
Oes gennych chi unrhyw sylwadau i JJ a Haz? Anfonwch ebost i A2@artsactive.org.uk

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Braving the Stave

Upbeats: Season 4, Episode 19

May 21, 2025 • Arts Active • Season 4 • Episode 19

Jon and Haz find out why it's best not to say 'neoclassicism' in a hurry before plunging into beautiful reinventions of the past. Along the way, Haz makes the connection between Stravinsky and sweating and Jon discovers Couperin's 'Tic-Toc Choc'.

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Arts Active Podcast

Transcript - Braving Neoclassicism

[Music: Amy Winehouse: Back to Black]

Well, that was a bit of Amy Winehouse for a change, from her album Back to Black. Hi, Haz. How are you?

Hey, JJ, I'm good, thanks. How are you?

I'm not too bad. We are currently on Zoom, which is a big shame, but not highly surprising because you are actually currently based in Glasgow.

I know, and not surprisingly, you're still based in… down South. So, I mean we have to do what we have to do.

It was inevitable. Although slightly frustrating that we've just found out that we were, in fact, both in London yesterday.

Yeah. [inaudible], I mean… ugh. C’est la vie, I mean c’est la vie

Such is life. c’est la vie, that's the life of a freelance artist. So, I've got a question for you: what has Amy Winehouse got in common with Daft Punk, Stravinsky, Picasso, David Bowie and so many others?

Um… they were all runners up in Junior Bake Off 2018.

That is a very good guess, and I personally would fancy David Bowie in that. But no, they are all artists who have at some point in their career, reinvented the past and made it into a new language and made that their thing. So they’re all… ‘neo-stylists’, I'm going to call them.

Which should give listeners a bit of a clue to what we're discussing in this week's podcast, which is Neoclassicism.

I mean, that's a difficult word to say.

It is you try it. Go on.

Neoclassicism. That…
JJ
Straight in.
Haz
… was really good.
JJ
Dammit.
Haz
Yeah.

Yes, Neoclassicism, which is used pretty broadly in a musical context to talk about the reinvention of the past. So not just the Classical era, but also the Baroque era and other earlier periods, really. We can talk about Neo-Baroque and Neo-Romantic, but it seems to be a bit of a, sort of, ‘catch all’ phrase, to be honest.

I mean, Jon, I could go on for days about each of them. And look, I know so much about each of those things, but I don't wanna make you look like you haven't done your research, so let's just stick to the neoclassic-i-sm.

Well, that’s very generous of you. I think listeners should have some kind of ongoing little game where they try to take a bet on how many times we're going to stumble on the word neoclassicism. You should try it at home. Not a word to be said in a hurry. Listen, Haz I think that you are actually a lot more current and, kind of, aware of the whole period than you might think, so I've picked three pieces here that I reckon that you will have played many times and the first of which is this one.

[Music: Stravinsky: Overture to Pulcinella]

There's a lot of notes.

That's a good observation.

I'm sweating so based on the level of sweat upon my body at the moment, I'm going to say it's Stravinsky.

That's a disturbing image. I'm going to go…. Stravinsky and sweat. Yes, you're absolutely right. Stravinsky, in some ways, the king of Neoclassicism… oh deary me.

Easy for you to say.

Because it was this piece, Pulcinella, which really switched him on to this whole aesthetic of reinventing the past. So he wrote Pulcinella, which is a ballet, in 1920 and he said that this was “the discovery of my past, the epiphany through which the whole of my late work became possible.” So that's quite a big claim, isn't it?

I mean, that's an amazing claim that… yeah, I wish my past was that organised and detailed. It's mostly a blur, a haze if you will. But yeah, there is a lot and I think if you heard that you would think it's classical, but maybe classical but, like, on some really, really strong attention-focusing drugs perhaps.

Perhaps. Yeah, it does bring it all into sharp focus and we're talking about Stravinsky's reinvention of works that are attributed, at least, to Giovanni Pergolesi and he was - Pergolesi was writing music for the Comedia del’Arte and all this kind of scene in Naples at the time, and Stravinsky was asked and commissioned to review those manuscripts and see what he could come up with. And he actually came up with something radically new. So he's using elements of the style; elements of Pergolesi and other composers of the period, and he's sort of chucking it all up in the air and seeing where it lands. And it's really exciting.

Yeah, I like it. He’s peppered it with lots more he's like “Yeah, they can take it these days, just give them a little bit more. A few more notes.”

Exactly. Even if it does bring them out in a sweat.
Haz
Yes.
JJ
We're talking about the poor orchestral musicians who have very busy and fastidious parts.

Yes. That's a nice way of saying ‘didn't practise’ but thank you.

Nice way of saying ‘really exposing.’
Haz
Yeah!
JJ
So, so here's excerpt number 2 in our little mini quiz.

Do you recognise this one?
[Music: Grieg: Praeludium (Allegro Vivace) from Holberg Suite]

OK.
Yeah, it's one of those ones that's like, “don't panic!” That is also, I have to say, a staple of youth orchestras. So, it's also played… I mean, with much vigour, but terribly across the land. So many peoples first you know introduction to neoclassicism - oh for goodness sake. I can’t say it. You know what I'm saying - is when they're younger and playing it in a Youth Orchestra, because it sounds pretty, it's really nice, but there's more bite to it as well.

So should we name the piece?

Oh soz, yeah, this is obviously Grieg. OBVIOUSLY Grieg. Holberg Suite.

Absolutely. And the Praeludium. So the first piece that opens this lovely suite by Grieg, and the important thing here is that it was written in the 1880s. So actually 20 years before Stravinsky came up with the idea of reinventing the past and, I suppose, in a way, composers from Bach onwards, even before Bach, have always been looking at previous composers. In Bach’s case, you know Vivaldi, Corelli and the Italian school, and thinking “OK, so where will I take this style?” And it's a very natural creative process, isn't it, just to see how you can extend the legacy of the past.

Mmmhm. Yeah. That's really cool. I saw this quote online that which said that if Stravinsky was alive today, he would be making some demonic stuff with the electronic instruments we've got today. Like, if he were around, he'd be haunting all of our nightmares with this… it's just what you have at the time, isn't it? So now we've got more electronic instruments and wacky things. He'd be just traumatising us, wouldn't he?

He would actually. I think you're absolutely right, because he was an innovator as well. I mean he would be wanting to see, you know, what new sounds were possible on which new instruments. You're absolutely right.
Haz
Yeah.
JJ
I think that's true. I think that's true. OK. So final excerpt here in this mini quiz.
Haz
OK.
JJ
I reckon you've played this one. We talked about it only in last month's podcast, so there we go.

OK, here we are.

[Music: Ravel: String Quartet in F Major: I. Allegro Moderato. Très doux]

It is so suave.

Yeah, ‘suave’ is a good one. I don't actually remember talking about this one in the last one. Look, a lot happens in a month, but this is beautiful.

It is of course…

Yeah, OK, I'll say it again with confidence. That is of course Ravel.

And his string quartet, again, the opening movement. We have played his pizzicato movement in the past.
Haz
Oh yeah!
JJ
And I think you're right actually, it wasn't last podcast, but in… yes, memorable distance.

Ravel, again, thrived on revisiting the precision and clarity and, I suppose, obvious form of both Baroque and Classical pieces. He was well known for that both on the piano and in his chamber and orchestral works, and I love the opening to this quartet. I'm currently coaching it at the Pre-conservatoire and…

Oh, lucky, that's great.

Yeah, they're loving it. And what makes it Classical, I suppose, are these beautifully shaped four-bar phrases and eight-bar phrases or two-bar. So it's periodic phrasing, which is a very, sort of, Classical concept. Very clear architecture, very clear line and accompaniment, and sense of order and balance. So all of these are Classical concepts.

Amazing. But then also matched with when you hear that, kind of, vibrato and that, kind of… the nice slides up to the notes, that's very Ravelian, isn't it? So you're taking these pieces and you're playing them with your own flair. So it's… well, I say your own flair but with the style of another artist and it…. yeah, it really makes for a nice blend.

I agree. So, I think it's worth pointing out that Neoclassicism in classical music became long after movements of the same kind in, say, the visual arts or architecture. So, in architecture they were reinventing the Graeco-Roman ideals of perfect form and balance. You know, if you think about the perfect line of pillars receding into the distance of a cathedral.

And the symmetry.

JJ
The symmetry of that. So that was happening, you know, back in the 1600s and before even, where they were just taking inspiration from ancient Greece and those ideals of harmony. And in the visual arts that was happening, and I suppose in literature as well in the 1600s and the 1700s, as they again just took inspiration from an earlier period, and yet it's not really until the 20th century that Classical composers really explored it and made it their own in terms of an aesthetic and a governing principle.

Wow, that that's a really nice way to put it. I spent ages on Google trying to work out what Neoclassicism is. And you… yeah, that's really nice.

That's my summary.

You should have a job with that, Jon. You should… You should be a music professional.

I do my best. Here are, I suppose, two ways in which you can do that. Two obvious ways. The first is to take a piece, say by François Couperin for harpsichord. And then to transcribe it quite literally, onto new instruments and to give it a new coloration and a new feel just by virtue of the fact that you've put it onto a new format and you've reimagined it in that way. So, here is a rather quirkily named piece by François Couperin called Le Tic Toc Choc. Alternatively Les Maillotins, which means ‘the little hammers’ and Tic Toc Choc, I think long before the TikTok as we know it, this is sort of picking up on the mechanic motion that you get on the harpsichord, in particular. Now you're going to hear a version played on the piano which is super hard because Grigory Sokolov, who you'll hear playing now, is having to, sort of, cramp both hands together, whereas on the harpsichord you be playing it on separate keyboards.

Ohhh.
JJ
So it's quite a physical feat, this one.

OK.

[Music: Couperin: Le Tic Toc Choc]

Haz
Oh, it's so cute.

It is very fluttery and just perfect, isn't it?
Haz
Yeah.
JJ
And you can hear that tic-toc movement.

He must be so dexterous when he's playing to not bump all the other notes because he hasn't got the two keyboards.

Do watch the YouTube of that. That's… as I say, yeah, youd've never believed that all ten fingers could occupy such a narrow space on the keyboard.

So now I want you to immediately compare that to Richard Strauss's version. This is his reinterpretation of that for a chamber orchestra, which he wrote for a ballet, called Divertimento.

[Music: Richard Strauss: Divertimento]

Oh, now this is more chill. This is more demure.

Yes. It makes it sound more Classical, in a way. And less Baroque.

Yeah, it's more like he's taking the exact score, giving it a little bit more space and saying “Right, this would sound better on modern instruments. There you go.”

So, that is the first way of approaching, I suppose, a reinvention, is to do a straightforward transcription from the keyboard, typically, or harpsichord to other instrumental forces and Richard Strauss was brilliant at that, and I do commend listening to whole suite called Divertimento, it is utterly charming. And here is an excerpt, just a very short one, from Prokofiev - his string quartet Number 1, which is going to be played by the Mavron Quartet on, I think it's June the 3rd, I want to say, it's in the first week of June anyway, in Eglwys Dewi Sant, in the lunchtime series curated by the wonderful Arts Active and I'm pleased to say that I've recorded a bonus episode with their founder and leader, Chrissy Mavron, and we'll go into more detail on the Prokofiev and, in fact, the Mozart that they play in that programme. It's a curious and enigmatic work here, but it's very much inspired by - at least in part - by the world of Mozart. So just have a listen to this.

[Music: Prokofiev:

Yeah, it's not the Prokofiev I think of when I think of Romeo and Juliet or Peter the wolf, really. It's dark, but it's still Classical-sounding, isn't it? Original classical-sounding.

This has an element of the Shostakovich scherzo style as well. The driving rhythms, but again a clear line with very clear accompaniment gives us a Classical texture. In fact, were we to listen to the opening movements, you get a much better sense of the classical style there, which is a more obvious tribute to the world of Mozart. But I just wanted you to hear a glimpse of the Mavron Quartet at work.

And what a gorgeous sound. I think anyone who has a chance to go see a string quartet, especially ones that are alive today, so not listening to old, dead, fussy recordings - listening to fairly youngish -and I mean that with love - women as well and just going to support them, I think is the best thing you can do for live music. Plus they sound bloody gorgeous.

They play with such energy and vitality.

They're so good and they're so nice as people as well, which shouldn't matter but they're so nice as well, and they're good people, good players, and anyone who can go support live music should. But if you can go do it with fantastic players, then go see the Mavs. They're amazing.

And we should keep the Welsh theme going here just by pointing out that “the Mavs”, as you call them, that's brilliant, they were met at the Royal Welsh or they have a connection anyway to the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama.

Hmm. Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

So there we go. So that's Prokofiev taking elements of the Mozartian style and the classical style, and using them to recreate a language or to invent a new modern language of his own. And in so doing, he's very much taking a leaf out the copy book of Stravinsky, who did that, in earnest, really, in his Octet for wind instruments. And this came two years after the Pulcinella, which also, I suppose, is reaching for a new language but the Octet is more radical still. Let me just play you the opening of this octet and I think you'll see that this is Stravinsky, the surgeon, you know, just excising elements, devices, ideas of the style and doing something utterly fresh and new with them.

[Music: Stravinsky: Octet for Wind Instruments: I. Sinfonia (Lento – Allegro Moderato)]

JJ
You’ve got the trills, you've got the couplets, the gestures of Classical music.

You’ve got the harmonies of a 20th century composer.

So this would be like a devious A-Level music question when you'd say “what would lead this piece to be... And like, what genre would this be?” And you'd have to think, “Oh my gosh, what period did this come from?” Because it's got all the hallmarks, as you said, the nice bars, the phrases, the ornaments, trills and mordents and turns. But it don't sound Classical.

No, and that's what makes it so beautiful and interesting, I think, is that it's putting a completely new lens on the past in that sense. So there you go, that's a really short foray into the world of reinventing the past and neoclassicism. Almost! Almost got there. God, there might be some judicious editing going on here. Who knows, listeners, I don't know.

I hope so, definitely, for my sake.

I think it would be nice to see ourselves out with a modern version of it. So here's Brad Mehldau, who is a jazz pianist that I really.... You don't like him?

I like him more. I like him more than you.

Well, I like him a bit, yeah.

Well, he's often reaching to the past. I know that he does great reinterpretations of Bach, for example, and here, though I thought we could flip it, right, and he's playing with styles, but in retroverse. So he's taking a piece by Radiohead, a lesser-known song of theirs called Little by Little. And he's taking the Alberti bass pattern, that ‘doo doo doo doo’ and he's putting that onto the piano. And in a way, it sounds, initially at least, like Radiohead in the style of Beethoven. So here is a lovely stylistic mashup to see us out. Thanks Haz, so much, for joining me all the way from Glasgow.

Oh my gosh, only a 35-second delay. We're loving it. This is great. So thank you so much for having me. And, yeah, can't wait for the next one.

And for those of you listening in time, don't forget to check out the concert by the Mavron Quartet in Eglwys Dewi Sant, right in the centre of Cardiff, as part of [the Arts Active] lunchtime series. Here is Brad Mehldau. Hwyl fawr.

[Music: Brad Mehldau: Cover of Little by Little (Radiohead)]